I hate Phils fans more than Sox and Cubs fans. They're not merely class-deficient assholes - they're overwhelmingly deeply ignorant assholes - the best kind, don't you think? While it sucks to be the players they unfairly malign (remember my scotty was one of them), it seems year in and year out to result in pressuring their management to give away talented people for a song. And the continuation of that trend, in Pat's and anyone else's case, is just fine with me. They don't deserve them.

June your Scotty was a complaining bitch much like yourself.Shut the fuck up.

you want burrell, take him. stats are one thing, but looking at his clueless, expressionless face after every strikeout will make you want to eat your television. check out his numbers with men on base and runners in scoring position...remember, he is hitting behing ryan howard, so its not like when he whiffs on the changeup (again) there arent runners on base or anything.

make me a deal. please take pat burrell. ill listen to all offers.

Not all of us Phils fans hate Burrell. Sure, he's frustrating sometimes--his tendency to strikeout looking comes to mind--but I think most of the diehard Phillies fans know the kind of player he is. Good player in the batters box, but not much of a fielder or baserunner. Oh, and he has the personality of a cabbage.

Regardless, I like having him on the team, as long as we've got someone to come in and play left field in the late innings.

Interesting stuff. However, you failed to touch on one point as to why we (diehard phils fan here) have such disdain for Pat the Bat. He hit .222 with RISP. He has patented the step back and watch a called third strike on the inside corner. He looks lost out there. The guy has no fire in his belly, he knows he is collecting a paycheck. I don't boo as fervently as some of my fellow fans, but I take umbrage to "June's" comments. Are you from STL? Great fans, don't get me wrong...but things are so much slower out there. You don't know what it's like in the hotbed cities like Boston, NY and Phila. WE HAVE NOT BEEN TO THE PLAYOFFS SINCE '93. WE HAVE ONE 1 WS TITLE IN HISTORY. God forbid the fans want a winner. Ignorant assholes???? Please. Before the Eagles took off, Philly was a baseball town. And I predict the Summer of '07 will go a long way in bringing it back.

If Pat is so great, Gillick couldn't give him away this winter. Yet has many has 10 teams were after Soriano. Plus you guy's with your numbers are great. Watch a goddam game once in your life. This guy does nothing to produce in the clutch, this city loves guys like Kruk, Dykstra and Utley. Why? Because they have personality and produce in the clutch. I wish you could watch Burrel strike out with one out and a man on third, that is what he is classic for doing. And he always has the same perplexed look on his face, this is what we are sick of. Were a Hard-working town who wants are athletes to be the same, it really sin't too much to ask.

philly fans dont hate burrell because he strikes out and has a low average, its because he doesnt give a shit. he has the potential to be a great player but he is just fine being the 5th best player on the team. watch more than 8 games a season and youll realize that. did you ever see a burrell strike out looking? he doesnt give a shit. he just walks back to the bench like nothing happens. philly doesnt give players shit unless they are scumbags who dont try to live up to the money they are making. burell doesnt live up to it. and thats why we love underpaid ryan howard because he works his ass off and shows some emotions.

scott rolen was a fucking crybaby thats why we didnt like him.

Hey June, I think you just revealed the true definition of "class-deficient assholes - they're overwhelmingly deeply ignorant assholes" when you stated that you "hate" three of baseballs most passionate and loyal fan bases. Let me know when your city goes almost 100 consecutive major sport seasons without a championship and your not hard on your players.

the best thing about being a mets fan in philadelphia - listening to this nonsense.....

you should see the last 2 days how many papers are carrying mets vs phillies stories trying to make this a rivalry....

and now wifebeater myers is talking junk......its all hysterical........

i would call the phillies "paperchampions" except that would be only in philly...every national paper has the mets winning......

I'm a Phillies fan and don't have as much of a problem with Burrell as some people. But you have to remember that Burrell was supposed to be the team's superstar slugger. He was their first-round pick, a guy who was supposed to be a consistent All-Star. He's a solid contributer, but has not lived up to expectations.
Add that to his poor performance with men on base, and he's going to get some boos.

He stinks. His number are
shallow. He is not clutch unless he is playing against the Mets. He
can hit in no pressure situations and he strikes out way too much. He
was the first pick in the draft and plays like a 3-4 rounder. He got
married this year so maybe he will concentrate on baseball instead of
partying every night. Philly fans and media are hard on him because you
can go out in Olde City on any night of the week and see him with half a
load on regardless if they have a game the next day or not. Half the
city has been back to his penthouse at the Ritten House at one time or
another partying after hours. He is a fool. He will bat behind Howard
in the 5th spot but he will be on a short leash. If he starts off like
he did last year, Wes Helms will move into the 5th spot and Pat will be
batting 7th or 8th.

I'm a Phils fan and I've been a fan of Burrell's for some time now. Other fans highlight his RISP numbers from 06 without mentioning his 05 numbers, his career numbers, or the simple fact that the numbers themselves are up and down from year to year for EVERY play.

http://hugetinymistake.wordpress.com/2007/02/09/mike-schmidt-has-had-it-with-your-strikeouts/

Look at this where Mike Schmidt even chimes in about strikeouts...and forgets all the production Burrell brings. People can be stupid.

Cartman, your comments are just utterly wrong, and they show your lack of knowledge about professional baseball. Be happy for what Burrell is, a very good player. Why get mad he isn't on the level of a Pujols? That's just ignorant.

Of course the mets fan's want Burrell, He kills them. My biggest problem with Burrell, like others have said, is his emotionless play. He's had the opportunity to hit behind not only Ryan Howard, but also Jim Thome, and he still didn't produce. He's injury prone, can't play LF, and we have no room for him, since we have the best Power-Hitting first baseman in the whole league. What can Mets fans claim..."we've got Beltran, and he's mediocre"--good for you. In philly, we only want the best. Our pitching staff, wife beaters included, is way better than yours going into the season. We're going to have a starter in the bullpen. Yankees and Mets fans make me sick, just keep spending that dough, then wonder why your tickets prices keep going up. It's going to be funny when all you whores start complaining when the new stadium's are built, how expensive ticket prices will be. Keep it up assholes, and suck on the collective dick of Philly, because unlike your cities, we actually COMPETE in more than one sport.

"My Scotty"? Tim Hardaway would fuck you up if he heard you talking like that June, and if you're a chick he'd fuck you up too because you're obviously a bull dyke. Pat "the bat" can go to hell for all I care, he is a consistent choke artist and rally killer. However, Ben Valentine must know something every GM in MLB doesnt, because for some reason Pat has been sitting on the trading block for a year now with no takers. Fuck Pat and fuck you too.

I once went to a bar for drinks with a former USC pitcher. He had flamed out early and not made the Bigs but he still kept in touch with many friends and teammates who were successful major leaguers. He actually called Chris Carpenter from his cell phone.

According to him, Pat Burrell is a complete sexual deviant. One night in Vegas, Burrell got dressed in a full leather body suit. The suit covered his face so people didn't realize it was him. For the duration of the evening Burrell ran around grabbing men by their genitals and humping everything in sight.

According to our source, this was not a joke and was endemic of other deviant behavior from Burrell over the years. So, before you resign him, make sure he's not insane.

Best 2nd Baseman in the League: Phillies.
Best 1st Baseman in the League: Phillies
Best Pitching Staff in the League: Phillies.
Best outfield in the League: Phillies.
2nd best SS in the League: Phillies. (I gotta give it to Reyes, little nigga can fly).

"plays like a 3-4 rounder"

This shows a fundamental lack of understanding about baseball.

Here are the #1 picks from 1985-2000 in the MLB draft:

B.J. Surhoff
Jeff King
Ken Griffey
Andy Benes
Ben McDonald
Chipper Jones
Brien Taylor
Phil Nevin
Alex Rodriguez
Paul Wilson
Darin Erstad
Kris Benson
Matt Anderson
Pat Burrell
Josh Hamilton
Adrian Gonzalez

Is Burrell any more than halfway down that list? Would you prefer Brien Taylor? The majority of 3-4 rounders never play in the bigs.

If you purport to love baseball, then learn about it, study it, realize that RISP numbers go up and down every year, don't just hide behind your cliches about emotion and effort. Check out the correlations between strikeouts and homeruns. Stop being so damn lazy and throwing your hate around where it isn't deserved.

Hey chase you are a complete asshole if you think pat the bat is a rally killer.I was out at the nodding head a micro brew pub on 15th street and sansom, when pat strolled in holding hands with via sikehemma. long story short, they started to get real touchy feely, then the momment happened pat pulled out his junk and stuffed it in via's mouth and choked him till he regurgated his alcohol. The whole bar started cheering homo, till tim hardaway walked in with john amecchi. Go tim you rock. And go phillies!!!

Dan wrote:
"Were a Hard-working town who wants are athletes to be the same, it really sin't too much to ask."

Well Dan, then why are you posting on a message board at 1:39 p.m. Either you're unemployed, or you're not working as hard as you want people to believe. Either way you're a drain on society. Now go learn something about baseball and run production.

Signed,
Your Boss

Stop comparing them to Soriano & Lee. They suck too. Those stats are as transparent as B Abreus.

Bill James loves Pat too - http://bugsandcranks.com/philadelphia-phillies/sabr-toothed-liar/

After reading this posting, I can honestly say you have no idea what you're writing about. The runs, hits and RBI's he manages usually come when the Phillies need them least. He is the least clutch player I've seen on this team...ever. This Burrell bashing isn't sour grapes, it's an honest assessment of the man's inability to show up when it matters most. I hope to God that ends this season. Go Phills!

"If he starts off like he did last year, Wes Helms will move into the 5th spot and Pat will be batting 7th or 8th."

If he hits .300, with a .400 On Base Percentage and a .612 Slugging Percentage, 7HRs and 21 RBIs in 23 games, he is going to be moved down to 7th or 8th? That is what he did last April.

This statement you made highlights why you should not be commenting on the subject of Pat Burrell. Your hatred for Burrell is clearly irrational because when he performs incredibly well, in your mind he has performed poorly.

PAT BURRELL IS GOD BECAUSE NUMBERS ARE THE END ALL BE ALL YOU DON'T HAVE TO WATCH GAMES WATCHING GAMES IS FOR UNINFORMED REDNECK WIFE BEATERS PAT BURRELL IS BEST PLAYER PAT BURRELL IS RUN PRODUCER TAKES WALKS WALKS VALUABLE HELP SCORE RUNS UNCLUTCH IS STUPID WORD NO SUCH THING AS CLUTCH OR UNCLUTCH JUST RANDOM CHANCE AND DISTRIBUTION YOU WOULD KNOW THIS IF YOU EVER TAKE MATH PAT BURRELL GOOD PLAYER DON'T BELIEVE OTHERWISE BLEEP

Here's the thing; Burrell posted a .388 OBP last year. That means he reached base when he came to plate more frequently than all but 22 major league players in 2006... a down year. If he's reaching base then he's also NOT making an out. That means he's not striking out nearly as much as his detractors think.

The RISP numbers were not pretty last year, but then Ryan Howard had a BA with RISP of .256, well below his norm. It just shows that over a smaller collection of at bats you'll see a greater deviation from normal production.

The term emotionless play is a frustrating one. How can you know if he doesn't try? Or do you feel that way because he can strike out looking?

Consider that Burrell saw more pitches than any other NL player last year. So what he displayed was a habit of being extremely patient at the plate last season.

I don't know why many GMs haven't dealt for him. Maybe because the Phillies claim to be trying to dump him but realize he's a very good player. I don't know, I don't claim to have insider info.

I realize that part of the problem with Burrell is that he never got a ton better than he was when he was 25. While that is a disappointment, the end result is still an above average outfielder. Reasons like "He doesn't try hard" or "he looks stupid striking out" are your opinions. The stats say otherwise- and stats are the measure of what a player did in any given season or career, right?

Why is it that objective statistics are widely used to assess the value of just every other thing on Mother Earth, but when it comes to baseball people just want to throw that all out the window and go by "what they see"? Maybe your eyeballs don't see the whole story, no matter how many games you watch. If Pat Burrell had a goatee and stupidly bounced his face off of walls there would already be a statue in his honor outside Citizen's Bank Park. Instead, he's one of the most productive offensive players in baseball and will never get the respect he truly deserves. It's about runs people, not effort.

Wes Helms?! Good grief, Wes Helms?! This is exactly what I mean by perception.

The soon to be 31 year old Wes Helms is a career .778 OPS guy. Yeah, he hit .329/.390/.575/.965 last year, but it was in 240 AB! He didn't play every day. Why would you pencil that as being as sure a thing over a guy who OPSed .893 and .890 the last couple of years? Burrell has had one season in his career where his OPS was lower than Helms' career mark.

He's not DiMaggio. He's not Pujols. No he's not Ryan Howard. But at least two of those guys are HoF players. Surely there's a few shades between HoF and minor leaguer, right?!

Ben, I think you broke teh Interweb...

I'm a die-hard Phillies fan, and I'm telling you, Pat Burrell is an awful player. Ask anyone who watches the team on a daily basis. His inability to hit in the clutch was so bad last year that Charlie Manuel was forced to bench him for games down the stretch. The reason he's untradeable is because other teams have scouts who actually watch the games and realize Burrell's significant liabilities.

Just wondering, was Burrell a horrible player last year when his AVG with RISP was over .300? And will he still be horrible when he hits .270 this year?

BURRELL IS DUMB CAUSE I SAY HE DUMV
YOU CAN TAKE YOUR FACTBOOK AND SHOVE IT! I NEVER LIKED BOOKS. TOO MANY FACTS.
BURRELL HIT BADLY WHEN I WACTH THE GAME. SEE, HE STRIKE OUT? GOOD PLAYER NEVER NEVER STRIKE OUT EVER. AND THAT WALK? HE SO LAZY, HE SHOULD SWING AT EVERY PITCH AND TRY TO GET HIT! SWING = HIT EVERY TIME! YAAAAY HIT
EVER WONDER WHY THERE'S NO WALKS IN T-BALL? CAUSE THE PLAYERS AIN'T LAZY! THEY'RE GRITTY! GRRRRRRRRRIT

Wow. I didn't realize the lunatic fringe in Philly was this far off the deep end. Self-loathing disguised as "toughness", rendering these people incapable of reason? Good times.

Pat Burrell's average with RISP, 2005-06: .271

Ryan Howard's average with RISP, 2005-06: .251

---------------------------

Pat Burrell's RBI that came while the Phillies were tied or within one run either way, 2006: 58 (or 61% of his total)

Chase Utley's RBI that came while the Phillies were tied or within one run either way, 2006: 44 (or 42% of his total)

--------------------------

Burrell's OPS when the game was tied, 2006: .945

Utley's OPS when the game was tied, 2006: .852

--------------------------

For those of you who were ripping Phillies phans earlier, I have to say that I don't blame you. But, as you can see, there are a few of us who do look at things objectively and rationally.

The worst thing in the world, though, is being accused of a crime and having to face a jury in Phildelphia. Because you know they're not going to actually look at the evidence.

Look, Pat is an average player and down the stretch last year, he kept the bat on his shoulders and wanted to get a walk so someone else would have to deal with the pressure. He needs to stop striking out looking, that's the only reason he got any heckling from the fans.

and are you seriously comparing Burrell to utley? You clearly don't follow the phillies at all.

So, could somebody please tell me when a home run or an RBI is empty? When does a run not count in baseball?

If Burrell hits a home run in the second inning and strikes out in the eighth, how is that different from him striking out in the second and hitting one in the eighth? He's still giving his team runs, and as we all know, you certainly can't win without runs in baseball.

I love how these people that "watch the games" never have any evidence to back up their claims except the mindless, idiotic ramblings of insufferable morons like John Marzano and Howard Eskin.

And another thing, would you rather Burrell strike out swinging than looking? Or hitting into a double play? But hey, GIDP be damned, he SWUNG. HE TRIED.

If he was a player with practically a sub-.700 OPS that runs into walls and his teammates, taking himself out of the game and putting himself on the disabled list for extended periods, leaving his team shorthanded at an already thin position, HE TRIED.

By the way, Burrell's batting average when batting after a Ryan Howard intentional walk? 1.000. No K's looking. No GIDPs. No flyouts. He sure hurts the team batting behind Howard, doesn't he?

Matthew,

Yes, I am comparing Burrell to Utley, in this particular area. And, yes, I do watch the Phillies quite a bit.

I'm not saying Burrell is a better player than Utley; at this point, that would be an absurd statement. Utley is the superior player, even if you don't take into account things such as age, position and health.

I was only responding to the accusation that Burrell only gets his RBI when the team doesn't need them. Sixty-eight of Burrell's 95 RBI came when the game was tied (and, thus, gave the Phillies the lead) or when the margin was 1 (either tying the game or extending the lead of a close game). Comparatively, Utley only had 44 RBI in such situations, and he had 7 more total RBI to work with.

Also, when the game was tied (and tie games generally could go either way), Burrell was a better player.

All of which, of course, doesn't really mean much. I could care less about any of these stats. But I was just showing that Burrell doesn't just get his RBI 'when the team doesn't need them'.

Matthew,

Now, about the strikeouts looking. As my friend Frank points out, does it really make a difference if he pops out, or strikes out swinging, or grounds out, or, worst of all, grounds into a double play?

Yes, he may occasionally get a hit on those pitches if he just 'put the ball in play'. So, even if he just got five hits out of those 50+ backwards K's, that be worth it, right?

It would, except for the fundamental flaw in this argument: you are only looking at the 50-some failures that approach has resulted in, and completely ignoring the successes gained from that approach.

(Ironically, I am going to have to go on 'what I saw' for the next part of this argument, as I have neither the time nor resources to get the exact numbers.)

In 2003, Pat Burrell sucked. Sucked so bad that writers no longer Called his Penthouse interview innapropriate. He was terrible.

One thing that I remember a lot about that year (again, just going on memory) was Pat striking out wildly at pitches down and away. If he got to two strikes, a pitcher threw that, and Pat was dead. It was as if his weakness had been discovered and broadcast to the league. Obviously, he had to adjust.

Either he could learn how to hit that pitch -- not an easy feat at the ML level, or he could adjust his game accordingly, or, he could stop swinging at it. Now, if a pitcher gets him to two strikes, he can throw that pitch, but he'd better make sure he gets it in the zone, otherwise Pat is not swinging.

Look at it this way: if Pat faces a 2 strike count in 100 at bats, and gets that pitch each time, and swings, he probably strikes out swinging at lest 75 times. Even when he does put the ball in play, it's not in his hot zone, so they'd just be little flares, most likely resulting in an out.

But if he takes that pitch, perhaps only 60 of those are in the strike zone. That means, at least 40 times, he either drew a walk or made the pitcher throw it to a place better suited for Burrell.

Admittedly, the above numbers are incomplete, and the hypothetical situation without any backing. But my point wasn't to conclusively prove anything, it was to illustrate why you cannot just focus on the failures, especially in a sport where failures are common. You have to look at the approach as a whole. If you change the approach to eliminate the failures, you also eliminate the successes that go with it.

So, the question should be, if Burrell were to cut down on his backwards K's, would that make him more or less productive?

I tend to think what these comments do show is in the eyes of many fans, a walk is less preferable than a guy grounding out on a close play at first. At least the guy busting it down to first gave an effort.

On one hand it's not as simple as that, and on the other hand it is. Burrell has been killed in many of these comments for not trying, yet he saw more pitches per plate apperance than any other NL player last year. How is he not trying when he sees that many pitches? If he were going thru the motions, he would never swing or just half ass is way thru every AB.

As Frank said, the majority of the Burrell detractors say they can "see" he sucks, or doesn't try. Instead, check out what the stats say. We've all been fooled by our eyes before. So examine the meaure of results instead.

Hey ben valentine,

You must be the cousin to Jim valentine, a total jask ass. You would not know a baseball if it hit you square in the head. First all take all your stats and facts And shove them up your ass at a slow pace-i want you to feel the burn!!!!You have to one day except the fact that he blows donkey dick, he wears woman undergarments and he is a sexual predator. Ben you need a reality check, and you need to stop living in the past and look forward to the future IDIOT. GO PHILLIES, and go wes helms

Burrell likes to Party. One night I was comming out of Woodies and he was on the corner giving a tranny a rim job. Thats why he sucks. When he bats he thins about women who are men and can't hit the ball unless it is big and hairy.

Pat is a great player and a great man anyone who thinks different needs to drink a big glass of shut the Hell Up. You guys just hate him because you ain't him.

Hey Moose,

You are a complete homo. I hope I encounter you in a dark ally, so I can shart in your face. Pat is a sex addic, i love it, I even once jerked off to his topps rookie baseball card. I still have the rag I let loose on, It is his piece of shit over rated jersey. Blow me moose.

First off a hole is a hole so don't tell me you would not have a boner if Pat pulled his pants down and showed you his red eye. We should have Pat drink some of Howards man juice to see if he can become a better hitter or maybe get pregnant and give birth to a player who has a little more fire.

While we are at it – comparing Pat’s bat to Carlos Lee and Alfonso Soriano – lets try some different #’s.

(Lee).300 – 37 hr – 116 rbi – 102 Runs – 19 sb – 58 bb’s - 75 xtra base hits
(Soriano).277 – 46 hr – 95 rbi – 119 runs – 41 sb - 67 bb’s – 89 xtra base hits
(Bat).258 – 29 hr – 95 rbi – 80 runs – 0 sb – 98 bb’s - 54 xtra base hits

…it doesn’t seem so close now does it?

This comparison is not really fair but it was you, Ben, that brought it on.
Pat Burrell is an ok player. He can hit a bad pitch a mile. He has been on the verge of 100 walks in each of the past two years. He has a decent arm out in left. I’m struggling to find any more good things.
I’ll take the 29 homers and the 95 rbi’s. 95 runs batted in is always good. It means that he is changing the scoreboard in a positive way. Of course, it doesn’t hurt that he hit behind Ryan Howard, Bobby A, and/or Chase Utley for the majority of the season. Soriano also had 95 rbi’s, he led off, hitting behind the 8 hole hitter and pitcher.
Ben said: “As I said, the big shot people take at Burrell has always been the strikeouts. Of course, that’s not actually the real problem….. most power hitters whiff a ton. Soriano fanned 160 times last season, Burrell 130. Soriano’s K:BB rate was 160/67- the 2.33 was one of the best marks of his career. (His career mark is 3.73)
On the other hand, Burrell struck out 131 times and walked 98 times; that’s 1.33 strikeouts for every free pass. He’s no Albert Pujols, or again, even Carlos Lee in that specific category, but he’s 49th in baseball. “
That is a nice stat for Burrell. The strikeout per walk ratio. 49th best in baseball. Are you kidding me? You brought up the fact that Soriano struck out 160 times last year and Burrell only 131. You didn’t include the fact that that Soriano also had 154 more at bats than your boy. In fact, I’m no genius but, 560(total ab’s)/131(k’s) = 1 K per 4.27 at bats for Pat. Which is actually worse than Soriano’s 1 K per 4.62. So, like you say “ that’s not actually the real problem” right? Hey, at least he has a good strike out per walk ratio.
Now we get into your batting eye theory. You said: “Burrell and Lee are both 30 and Soriano is 31. When handing out seven year contracts (or more) to players that age, you’d better believe rate of decline will be a factor. Since batting eye is the last to go, Burrell should age better than the others going forward. So if you were asking me who I’d sink a long term, big money contract into the choice would be Pat the Bat.”
I am assuming that you are basing your knowledge on Pat’s batting eye on the fact that he walks more than the others do. Maybe you are right. Maybe he has better eyes than Lee and Soriano. I trust your opinion. I’m sure you included the fact that Burrell led the majors in striking out looking each of the past two years into your theory. Better eyes? Interesting.
You are a generous man, Ben. 100 million on an assumption on better eyes, K/BB ratio and an OPS that is inflated by a reluctance to swing the bat. I think you would be a great GM. Are you related to Ed Wade?

After reading the past few comments, actually being criticized by an actual argument never felt so good.

Okay first off, runs and RBI are product of lineup more than anything else. SB is valid, and Lee swiped them at a very high rate. Soriano stole at the base of what is acceptable, 71%. It adds to their value in 2006.

But of course, they are 100 million dollar players. You don't mean to tell me that what makes them fairly paid and Burrell overpaid is the ability to steal bases, do you? In addition at the age of 30, both Lee and Soriano figure to see a drop their SB rates.

Why would the fact Burrell hit behind Ryan Howard help him? He did hit in front of him early in the season I believe and that might help. (Steady diet of fastballs) In any case, looking at the numbers, his place in the lineup made no difference, his OPS was .899 batting 4th and .918 batting 5th.

You sarcastically dismiss the walks, but it does matter. It shows he is working the count and laying off bad pitches. That IS valuable. It's not as much if you provide little else, but Burrell gave the Phillies power as well. So, he reached base very well and hit the ball hard when he made contact.

High OBP guys do decline slower. I'm basing it on the stats; the fact that he had a .388 OBP despite just a .258 BA. 130 points higher.

So here's again my question; if Burrell reached base 38.8% of the time, Soriano reached base 35.1% of the time and Lee reached 35.5% of the time, which player was most likely to reach base when they came to bat in 2006? Why does the fact Burrell struck out more times than the others matter if he reached base more frequently?

Is Burrell as good as the other two? Maybe not. But the difference between the three isn't great enough to consider Burrell trash while the others worth 100 million.

Thank you, Oliver, for showing that not all Philly phans who find this page are cretins, like several of the folks who'd been commenting. I mostly agree with Ben's response to your post, so I'll only add a couple things. First, it's been shown that strikeouts are ultimately no worse than any other type of out. The worst things a hitter can do are hit into a triple or double play. After that, all the other outs are essentially equally bad. The counterintuitive thing is that a guy who who both strikes out and walks a lot is pretty darn valuable based on those attributes alone because it means he's probably working a lot of deep counts, which wears down pitchers, which is great for an offense over the course of a season. Add power when he does make contact, and that hitter is especially valuable. Second, while Ben is right that hitters with very good OBPs tend to maintain those OBPs as they age while their other skills decline, sometimes precipitously (prime examples: Dave Justice, Luis Gonzalez, Rickey Henderson), the big thing working against Burrell as he ages is his decided lack of athleticism because he's already got an older player's body. Adam Dunn will likely face this issue. Guys like Carl Crawford are better bets than Burrell to be good later in their careers, and Burrell is a better bet than Lee as time goes on.

I understand the value of a walk. A high OBP is never a bad thing. Working the count wears down the pitcher, I understand that. I read Moneyball, too. I love it when Pat Burrell takes his free pass. I just don’t believe that 29 homers and 100 walks while working the pitcher would equal a $100 million long-term deal. Could he be a productive role player when healthy? Sure. Is he a decent but flawed offensive player? Yes. $100 million over 7 years? I don’t think so.

I agree with you that runs and rbi’s are products of lineup. That’s what I was saying when I said Burrell hitting behind those guys who were constantly on base helped and Soriano was driving in runs all by himself. And no, I am not saying stolen bases has anything to do with getting a big time contract. But the ability to run the bases is a big deal as opposed to the station to station player. The threat of a stolen base makes the pitcher work in a way similar to seeing a lot of pitches. Well, most pitchers…Philly fans I’m sure remember Houston running all over them two years ago and Wagner was caught with his thumb up his @$$ in a game the Phils needed to win.

An out is an out. I only brought that up because Ben brought up that the fans are tough on him because he strikes out too much yet Soriano strikes out more, which is not true. So I guess, we agree that an out is an out is an out. Philadelphia probably does magnify the strikeout more than other places because for a few season we have had some of the best in the business at striking out. Thome/Abreau/Burrell/Howard/Utley/Rollins (though he has cut back) and I’m sure I’m forgetting some more. Does that make it right? It doesn’t make it wrong. It’s Philly.

I don’t think Pat Burrell is a terrible player. I think he can be a productive player. I have seen him be a productive player. I think Adam Dunn is a fair comparison numbers wise. I am still having trouble comparing him with Soriano and Lee. This guy (Burrell) couldn’t stay in the lineup last year during the stretch run. Chalie felt more comfortable with backups on a team that was not very deep. Is that a $100 million player? Now, hopefully that was because of his “chronically troublesome” right foot that was bothering him. But shouldn’t that be considered on how he will supposedly age? You would lock this guy up to a 7 yr contract?

My bad..didn't mean for it to come up 3x's

No worries about the triple post. Accidents happen.

If it were me, I wouldn't pay any of the three 100 million dollars. All have baggage. Soriano had a career year in a contract year after having work ethic issues in the seasons prior. That and he's 31. Lee has always been a solid player, but again at 30, and not all that "athletic" defensively, he's a guy who's probably not going to be worth anything near what he's being paid in a couple of years.

Burrell shouldn't get 100 million bucks. But, is he comparable to Soriano and Lee when you take the last few years into consideration? I feel he is. And if they can fetch 100 million, then there's no reason Burrell couldn't either when he's essentially as valuable as them now and projects to age better because of his batting eye.

My point with the strike outs was to show that people who strike out a ton are only criticized when they also hit for low average. Sometimes it's justified because they stink, but Burrell does not because the walks mitigate it. That Conlin piece showed everything that was wrong with the perception of Burrell and whining about the K's.

Ultimately, I was trying to show Burrell was an above average offensive player whose contributions are underappreciated by his fan base; that despite what many in Philly say, swapping Burrell with someone like Lee or Soriano would not make the Phillies much better, if better at all. The 100 million was to show a comparison. I'm saying market value should make him 100 million dollars. Whether or not the market is overinflated is a column for another day.

Manuel is one of the worst managers in baseball and made a mistake last year benching Burrell. He replaced him with guys like Jose Hernandez, who should have been playing third over Nunez. Jeff Conine? Even at his worst, Burrell is better than those guys. With a competant manager, Philly would have made the wild card last year. But again, that's an argument for another column.

I don't think we're really disagreeing on the main point that Burrell is a solid player though.

It is true Ben you are a complete jackass. Manuel might be one of the worst managers but it is not his falt that Pat strikes out when ever it matters. He never had a big hit in his life. You must be his man lover the way you defend him. Enjoy the balls on your chin you son of a bitch. If you knew anything about man love you would know the only reason Pat is still on the team is the fact that he can suck a baseball through a garden hose. Have a nice day you arrogant sperm bank.

Moose - You are a jackass.

If market value for Burrell would be around $100 mil. Lets say 100/7 = 14+ per year. Then why aren't teams more willing to trade for him right now.

I believe his current salary has him making about 27 mil thru the end of next season. And the thinking is that a new team would have to take on about half of that. It would seem like a bargain to me if his worth(in this market)is 14+ per. I know nobody likes the no trade clause- but for two years wouldn't somebody take him in for that much of a bargain? (I know Biily King would. Sorry, wrong sport.) Maybe teams are asking and the Phillies (or Burrell) are turning them away but it is kind of difficult to believe. It is at least tough to believe that we would not hear about it..

We can go back and forth about his numbers and philly fans appreciating him all day. But the fact that teams would pay thru the roof for a Soriano yet wouldn't even inquire about Burrell when they are- as you say- similar players has to say something. Philly fans can't be influencing other teams, can they? I don't think so. I love talking #'s as much as anybody else but sometimes #'s don't tell the whole story.

Conlin is senile. He writes so that nobody else understands. I wouldn't be surprised if he thinks that conversation between Pat and Dimaggio actually happened.

Oliver, it's not necessarily a good deal to pay the guy 10 million per year (it seems likely Philly wouldn't pay quite half), even if that's a good amount less than what he'd get on the free agent market. The player market as a whole is much larger, and there are ways to get Burrell's production (or Soriano's, Lee's, or Barry Zito's) for a lot less than what they're being paid. MLB folk still seem to underrate defense, at least when it comes to awarding free agent contracts, if not when awarding playing time. So, even if he's a valuable hitter, his potential defensive contribution would temper my ardor for acquiring him. What is his monetary value relative to his production? Haven't done the math, but I'm guessing I'd pay Burrell 10mil only if it gets me over the hump. In other words, if he's replacing Scott Podsednik, awesome. If he's replacing Austin Kearns, I wouldn't bother.

Ben,

I was on vacation in sunny clearwater florida visiting my friends. I happened to read what you put about bill conlin. I actually am really good friends with him, And if you insult him you for sure insult me, so listen up tough guy. You keep going by your stats and your nonfiction bullshit BENjamine. I will be back to give it to you ben you half of women. Is that thong shoved to far up your ass homo. pull it out or better yet let me use my mouth.

AMEN

Here is a little info for the genius that is Ben. Just because you wear women's panties does not make you a women so untuck your pecker from behind your legs and be a man. Bill Conlin can do more with one testicle then you could ever do. So if you stop sitting down when you pee then there will be no problem. Maybe me and you should take a ride on the hershey highway and talk about how wipe your ass after spending the night with a man.

That's not the point. A "good deal" may not have been the right words for me to use. I absolutely agree that there are cheaper ways to get production. I wish that was said earlier, maybe I would have been more productive at work the past couple of days. What I was trying to say was... If a GM thought that Burrell and Soriano were similarly productive and the market for both are reltively close. Then why would somebody dish out whatever it is Soriano just signed for (I can't count that high)over 8 yrs when a similar player could be available for a fraction of that over two years. I believe the answer is that not many, if any, believe that they are anywhere near in the same market.

I can't say why they don't see things that way. But Terry Ryan, a good G.M. non tendered David Ortiz. The Rangers traded away Travis Hafner for a guy coming off one of the worst seasons in the last ten years. G.M.s are people like everyone else, and sometimes reputation precedes you. Soriano has all "the tools" you look for. Lee has had two very good seasons where he sort of was a surprise. These are all bonuses; Burrell's been a better big leaguer than Lee, but more was expected of him.

My favorite example to use is a football one; Tim Couch and Kelly Holcomb. One look at the stats tells you Couch was a better QB than Holcomb ever was, but Holcomb is still employed in the NFL. (He also took Couch's job back in Cleveland) Why? Because Couch was a "bust" as the #1 overall pick but Holcomb was a nice pick wherever he was drafted. Heck Jon Kitna got millions for having ONE good season when his entire career he was worse than Tim Couch. Eli Manning is a decent quarterback, but his brother and where he was picked are already dogging him. Rep matters; Burrell has a bad rep because of what was expected of him. Numbers say otherwise. Numbers also say Alex Rodriguez is a better postseason player than Derek Jeter. Selective memory is why people swear that's hogwash.

In other words, just because Hendry would pay for Soriano or Purpura for Lee and not Burrell doesn't mean they're not comparable players. It just means that those G.M.s (who have a questionable track record to say the least) didn't view them as such. They could well be wrong.

Oliver: the problem with your line of reasoning is that it assumes that MLB GMs are the best arbiter of player value. It's been proven time and time again that most of them have no goddamn clue about what makes a player worthwhile.

Soriano and Burrell may not be completely equal, but the fact that no one tried to trade for Burrell leads me to believe that either A) the Phillies, contrary to their stated position, didn't want to trade him because they recognize his value or B) teams like the Cubs and Astros didn't realize that trading for Burrell would have been far more cost effective than signing Lee/Soriano to the deals they received. Both are believable to me.

To all you Burrell fans out there you need to stop chocking on his manhood and realize he is a penis tucker, so how can we support a player who tapes his penis to his leg while he is at bat. He is a sexual predator who would soddomize any one of you if he got the chance. As i write this I am getting an erection just thinking about him getting traded. Once upon a time is saw him face deep in some man ass, now you tell me is this the type of player you want on our beloved Phillies?

i am so erected right now, i may explode. PAt there is something about the way that thong rides up your ass that i love. When you bendover that tucked penis of yours hangs like cow balls. I thought about teabags all night, and then i realized you are very hairy and i do not want hair balls.

Pat, there is more then one way to choke a chicken. If you dated me i would use my feet to get you off and they i would take your man juice and put it in the drinks of all the mets players so that they suck as much as you. I do not have hairy balls so if me and you rubbed our balls together it would make a cute pair. Also Ben Valentine should come with us on a date and we can show him how one man can impregnate another, i can be done just takes alot of hard work and a funnel.

Reputation or no reputation the gm's/owners are who end up paying these guys. They set the market so what they think really DOES matter when it comes to market value. Whether their judgement is any good or not doesn't really matter- no matter how right you may be. Philly fans do not influence the Gm's. Neither does Bill Conlin or Howard Eskin. Underappreciated? I don't think so. He is what he is. A fairly productive offensive player with chronic knees best fit for a platoon who is overly criticized because he was a top pick and he strikes out too much for the fans( and Schmidtty's) liking. There I think we have it.

Zach- (A) is believable. I think that after Soriano, Lee, Sheffield, etc left the table - Gillick knew he was going to keep Burrell unless somebody knocked his socks off with an offer. After all, he is a righthanded bat in which they lack and he hit 29 homeruns and walked a ton in a year in which he struggled with leg injuries and boobirds. (B) is nonsense. I don't even think you believe that.

Hello fellow homos. What a wet and wild game yesterday for the phillies. Burrell looks so sexy in the sun during a day game. Maybe we should keep him because he is cute because he sure as shit can't hit. But he sure can eat some ass after a day at the park. I was at the game and it turns out Burrell showed Mike Schmidt what he looks like with his penis tucked between his legs but when he tried to pull his pants back up Schmidt spit on his face and PF him in the ass all the while saying this will make you a hall of famer. God bless the Phillies.

I too soaked in the sun in sunny clearwater florida, as did my underwear soaking up all the jizz that oozed out of my pecker everytime pat pulled out his bat(unit). Moose i get more attracted to you everytime you drop it like its hot, kind of like taking a dump in a grown man's mouth. I am so fucking horny right now, I pulled out my baseball bat signed by the bat himself, and i am ramming it up my ass. No lube